Discussion:
Some complement about Tracker-tracker communication
guanying_wang
2005-02-19 11:21:04 UTC
Permalink
The torrent file contains tracker address and file hash, which are the
only useful infomation torrent file contains. Trackers can identify
different torrent file by checking file hash, and Merkle Tree hash is
short enough for quick identification. If we can turn to wide
deployment of Merkle Tree as soon as possible, I think tracker-tracker
communication will be very easy to implement.

Scalability is good, because capacity can effectively be improved by
simply adding additional trackers.

Thank you.

Guanying

PS: I haven't seen my first post till now. God knows when I can, maybe
tomorrow... How do you guys use this list? I think the web interface
is not good enough. RSS, either. Thank you.






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Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
2005-02-20 20:18:14 UTC
Permalink
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Tracker-Tracker communication already has some implementation in
real-world environments.

BNBT based trackers running on versions 7.3, 7.7, and 8.0 have the
capability (with the consent of the administrators of both trackers)
to share ALL peer data.

I personally operate a 5-way (not including the dedicated hub) linked
tracker network. There are indeed several steps to take at the start
to insure proper peer data sharing, but most have been documented at
http://cbtt.depthstrike.com/trackerlinks. Additionally, deployment
guidelines have been documented there as well.

I have been working on a php implementation of automated editing of
tracker information within .torrent files and returning them to
clients (in an effort to simplify my own tracker network's use).

- -----Original Message-----
From: guanying_wang [mailto:***@yahoo.com.cn]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:21 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication



The torrent file contains tracker address and file hash, which are
the
only useful infomation torrent file contains. Trackers can identify
different torrent file by checking file hash, and Merkle Tree hash is
short enough for quick identification. If we can turn to wide
deployment of Merkle Tree as soon as possible, I think
tracker-tracker
communication will be very easy to implement.

Scalability is good, because capacity can effectively be improved by
simply adding additional trackers.

Thank you.

Guanying

PS: I haven't seen my first post till now. God knows when I can,
maybe
tomorrow... How do you guys use this list? I think the web interface
is not good enough. RSS, either. Thank you.

- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Justin Cormack
2005-02-21 09:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Tracker-Tracker communication already has some implementation in
real-world environments.
BNBT based trackers running on versions 7.3, 7.7, and 8.0 have the
capability (with the consent of the administrators of both trackers)
to share ALL peer data.
I personally operate a 5-way (not including the dedicated hub) linked
tracker network. There are indeed several steps to take at the start
to insure proper peer data sharing, but most have been documented at
http://cbtt.depthstrike.com/trackerlinks. Additionally, deployment
guidelines have been documented there as well.
Just a few questions about these:

I see the main point is not listed as being bandwidth (despite what other
people say about the huge importance of compact=1 suggesting that trackers
are bandwidth limited) or even reliability (the solution has a single point
of failure tracker hub apparently too, rather than peer to peer tracker
solutions, though it will add some extra reliability), but number of
connections.

This is a bit surprising to me as the limiting factor, how many connections
are we talking about? And doesnt UDP tracker solve this by being
connectionless? Or are there other problems with udp, or is it just not
widely used?

Justin
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
I have been working on a php implementation of automated editing of
tracker information within .torrent files and returning them to
clients (in an effort to simplify my own tracker network's use).
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:21 AM
Subject: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
The torrent file contains tracker address and file hash, which are
the
only useful infomation torrent file contains. Trackers can identify
different torrent file by checking file hash, and Merkle Tree hash is
short enough for quick identification. If we can turn to wide
deployment of Merkle Tree as soon as possible, I think
tracker-tracker
communication will be very easy to implement.
It doesnt make much difference whether you use Merkle tree or info hash,
they are the same size.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Scalability is good, because capacity can effectively be improved by
simply adding additional trackers.
Thank you.
Guanying
PS: I haven't seen my first post till now. God knows when I can,
maybe
tomorrow... How do you guys use this list? I think the web interface
is not good enough. RSS, either. Thank you.
There are moderation delays sometimes, on all interfaces. I use the email
version, havent seen the first post either...
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005
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Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
2005-02-21 15:04:07 UTC
Permalink
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On windows, the number of connections you need to use to reach the
limit is around the number of connections required for 2000-5000
peers with a best-seen of a little under 10,000 peers (I know it's
not many, but it seems that the windows TCP/IP stack doesn't like
having dozens-thousands of half-closed connections lying around).

On linux, the number of connections you need to use to reach the
limit is around the number of connections required for 1,000,000+
peers, although it may be less because of other limitations such as
routers (if I remember right, we have yet to see a single tracker
actually reach these sort of limits, most trackers are hitting
interest limits in the 300k-400k range).

UDP _MAY_ solv some of the problems involved here, but there doesn't
seem to be enough acceptence by the development community for it to
be useful as a solution to this problem.

When I hit the 10,000 peer limit of Windows, the bandwidth used
(pre-compact implementation on my tracker) was less than 10kbyte/sec.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Justin Cormack [mailto:***@street-vision.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:34 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Tracker-Tracker communication already has some implementation in
real-world environments.
BNBT based trackers running on versions 7.3, 7.7, and 8.0 have the
capability (with the consent of the administrators of both
trackers) to share ALL peer data.
I personally operate a 5-way (not including the dedicated hub)
linked tracker network. There are indeed several steps to take at
the start to insure proper peer data sharing, but most have been
documented at http://cbtt.depthstrike.com/trackerlinks.
Additionally, deployment guidelines have been documented there as
well.
Just a few questions about these:

I see the main point is not listed as being bandwidth (despite what
other
people say about the huge importance of compact=1 suggesting that
trackers
are bandwidth limited) or even reliability (the solution has a single
point
of failure tracker hub apparently too, rather than peer to peer
tracker
solutions, though it will add some extra reliability), but number of
connections.

This is a bit surprising to me as the limiting factor, how many
connections
are we talking about? And doesnt UDP tracker solve this by being
connectionless? Or are there other problems with udp, or is it just
not
widely used?

Justin
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
I have been working on a php implementation of automated editing of
tracker information within .torrent files and returning them to
clients (in an effort to simplify my own tracker network's use).
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:21 AM
Subject: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
The torrent file contains tracker address and file hash, which are
the
only useful infomation torrent file contains. Trackers can identify
different torrent file by checking file hash, and Merkle Tree hash
is short enough for quick identification. If we can turn to wide
deployment of Merkle Tree as soon as possible, I think
tracker-tracker
communication will be very easy to implement.
It doesnt make much difference whether you use Merkle tree or info
hash,
they are the same size.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Scalability is good, because capacity can effectively be improved
by simply adding additional trackers.
Thank you.
Guanying
PS: I haven't seen my first post till now. God knows when I can,
maybe
tomorrow... How do you guys use this list? I think the web
interface is not good enough. RSS, either. Thank you.
There are moderation delays sometimes, on all interfaces. I use the
email
version, havent seen the first post either...


- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005


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Justin Cormack
2005-02-21 15:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
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On windows, the number of connections you need to use to reach the
limit is around the number of connections required for 2000-5000
peers with a best-seen of a little under 10,000 peers (I know it's
not many, but it seems that the windows TCP/IP stack doesn't like
having dozens-thousands of half-closed connections lying around).
On linux, the number of connections you need to use to reach the
limit is around the number of connections required for 1,000,000+
peers, although it may be less because of other limitations such as
routers (if I remember right, we have yet to see a single tracker
actually reach these sort of limits, most trackers are hitting
interest limits in the 300k-400k range).
UDP _MAY_ solv some of the problems involved here, but there doesn't
seem to be enough acceptence by the development community for it to
be useful as a solution to this problem.
Well it sounds like less of an issue given what you say, if the answer
is just not to use Windows for your tracker if you want to scale.

How many half closed connections is that roughly? Could probably make
an estimate from the bandwidth I suppose.

UDP ought to scale a bit better, although if there is a lot of packet
loss this could end up not being the case. Especially as tcp send is
very efficient, and they are small messages unlikely to be fragmented
anyway, may not make much difference under a good implementation.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
When I hit the 10,000 peer limit of Windows, the bandwidth used
(pre-compact implementation on my tracker) was less than 10kbyte/sec.
Thats very little bandwidth

So compact really doesnt save much, no point in trying to introduce
a compact for for ipv6 as some have suggested.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Tracker-Tracker communication already has some implementation in
real-world environments.
BNBT based trackers running on versions 7.3, 7.7, and 8.0 have the
capability (with the consent of the administrators of both
trackers) to share ALL peer data.
I personally operate a 5-way (not including the dedicated hub)
linked tracker network. There are indeed several steps to take at
the start to insure proper peer data sharing, but most have been
documented at http://cbtt.depthstrike.com/trackerlinks.
Additionally, deployment guidelines have been documented there as
well.
I see the main point is not listed as being bandwidth (despite what
other
people say about the huge importance of compact=1 suggesting that
trackers
are bandwidth limited) or even reliability (the solution has a single
point
of failure tracker hub apparently too, rather than peer to peer
tracker
solutions, though it will add some extra reliability), but number of
connections.
This is a bit surprising to me as the limiting factor, how many
connections
are we talking about? And doesnt UDP tracker solve this by being
connectionless? Or are there other problems with udp, or is it just
not
widely used?
Justin
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
I have been working on a php implementation of automated editing of
tracker information within .torrent files and returning them to
clients (in an effort to simplify my own tracker network's use).
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:21 AM
Subject: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
The torrent file contains tracker address and file hash, which are
the
only useful infomation torrent file contains. Trackers can identify
different torrent file by checking file hash, and Merkle Tree hash
is short enough for quick identification. If we can turn to wide
deployment of Merkle Tree as soon as possible, I think
tracker-tracker
communication will be very easy to implement.
It doesnt make much difference whether you use Merkle tree or info
hash,
they are the same size.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
Scalability is good, because capacity can effectively be improved
by simply adding additional trackers.
Thank you.
Guanying
PS: I haven't seen my first post till now. God knows when I can,
maybe
tomorrow... How do you guys use this list? I think the web
interface is not good enough. RSS, either. Thank you.
There are moderation delays sometimes, on all interfaces. I use the
email
version, havent seen the first post either...
- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005
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Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
2005-02-21 16:02:46 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Half-closed connections don't take up any bandwidth. That's the
problem.

I haven't run a windows tracker in ages, but on linux it seems that
for every established connection there are upwards of 30 half-closed
connections. I'm not sure how windows handles that many, but it
doesn't seem to like them that much (but I may have missed a reg
hack.

There's no RUSH for compact support with IPv6 peers at this time. It
wouldn't hurt to implement a compact for IPv6 at this time, but the
no_peer_id extension should be enough to hold us over until the IPv6
compact extension is ready (because of the low number of users that
actually use IPv6 compared to the current IPv4).

- -----Original Message-----
From: Justin Cormack [mailto:***@street-vision.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:24 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BitTorrent] Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication

Well it sounds like less of an issue given what you say, if the
answer
is just not to use Windows for your tracker if you want to scale.

How many half closed connections is that roughly? Could probably make
an estimate from the bandwidth I suppose.

UDP ought to scale a bit better, although if there is a lot of packet
loss this could end up not being the case. Especially as tcp send is
very efficient, and they are small messages unlikely to be fragmented
anyway, may not make much difference under a good implementation.
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
When I hit the 10,000 peer limit of Windows, the bandwidth used
(pre-compact implementation on my tracker) was less than
10kbyte/sec.
Thats very little bandwidth

So compact really doesnt save much, no point in trying to introduce
a compact for for ipv6 as some have suggested.

- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005


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Olaf van der Spek
2005-02-21 16:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Cormack
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
When I hit the 10,000 peer limit of Windows, the bandwidth used
(pre-compact implementation on my tracker) was less than 10kbyte/sec.
Thats very little bandwidth
So compact really doesnt save much, no point in trying to introduce
It saves about 50 % bandwidth and it saves CPU time.
Post by Justin Cormack
a compact for for ipv6 as some have suggested.
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guanying_wang
2005-02-21 10:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Cormack
This is a bit surprising to me as the limiting factor, how many connections
are we talking about? And doesnt UDP tracker solve this by being
connectionless? Or are there other problems with udp, or is it just not
widely used?
Justin
I personally think it's just not widely deployed. udp tracker
extension is really good for reducing bandwidth consuming.

Actually quite a few flaws in current BitTorrent protocol, why don't
we just move on to designing a wholly new protocol?
Post by Justin Cormack
It doesnt make much difference whether you use Merkle tree or info hash,
they are the same size.
Thank you for pointing out the mistake. I checked BitTorrent protocol
today, and find out the same thing :)

Guanying






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edgaribsen
2005-02-22 19:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Cormack
or even reliability (the solution has a single point
of failure tracker hub apparently too, rather than peer to peer tracker
solutions, though it will add some extra reliability)
In fact, I have been working on this problem, and have come up with a
solution: "hub fallback". A detailed description of it can be found
here: http://www.filesoup.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=102&t=90533

Basically, "hub fallback" makes it so that unless every single tracker
is down (in which case no one would be able to connect at all),
there will be no peer split.

I, in fact, choose to run a tracker web instead of a single tracker
because it gives a LOT more reliability (using that fallback
function). Almost none of our trackers can stay up 24/7 (for various
reasons), so having a tracker ring really makes sure that there is at
least one tracker up at all times (or at least that has been the case
since I started the ring).






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guanying_wang
2005-02-21 13:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Tracker-Tracker communication already has some implementation in
real-world environments.
BNBT based trackers running on versions 7.3, 7.7, and 8.0 have the
capability (with the consent of the administrators of both trackers)
to share ALL peer data.
Harold,

I have tried BNBT Trinity Edition, it really works, great! Is there
any specification on communication between trackers? With a
specification, different tracker implementations can communicate with
each other.

Guanying
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
I personally operate a 5-way (not including the dedicated hub) linked
tracker network. There are indeed several steps to take at the start
to insure proper peer data sharing, but most have been documented at
http://cbtt.depthstrike.com/trackerlinks. Additionally, deployment
guidelines have been documented there as well.
I have been working on a php implementation of automated editing of
tracker information within .torrent files and returning them to
clients (in an effort to simplify my own tracker network's use).
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BitTorrent/

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BitTorrent-***@yahoogroups.com

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Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
2005-02-22 16:14:56 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Right now there is no specification document for the BNBT link
protocol.

I actually answered this question on the BNBT forums. (reference:
http://bnbt.depthstrike.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=754)

I'll see about getting a specification document ready when the new
protocol is implemented.
- -----Original Message-----
From: guanying_wang [mailto:***@yahoo.com.cn]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:06 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BitTorrent] Re: Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication

<snip>

Harold,

I have tried BNBT Trinity Edition, it really works, great! Is there
any specification on communication between trackers? With a
specification, different tracker implementations can communicate with
each other.

Guanying

<snip>

- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005


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guanying_wang
2005-02-23 08:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Sorry to bother you. Actually I asked here first, and then there. But
due to the moderate problem, this post appeared later :)

I think maybe I can help with some implementation, about "upload once,
all trackers aware" I mentioned on BNBT forum. How do you think?

Say if I operate 10 or even more trackers linked together, users have
to publish torrent file on every tracker, or the unpublished trackers
are not in use at all. It's terrible, isn't it? So I really want to
connect trackers to act just like one.

Guanying
Post by Harold Feit - Depthstrike.com Administrator
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Right now there is no specification document for the BNBT link
protocol.
http://bnbt.depthstrike.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=754)
I'll see about getting a specification document ready when the new
protocol is implemented.
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:06 AM
Subject: [BitTorrent] Re: Some complement about Tracker-tracker
communication
<snip>
Harold,
I have tried BNBT Trinity Edition, it really works, great! Is there
any specification on communication between trackers? With a
specification, different tracker implementations can communicate with
each other.
Guanying
<snip>
- --
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005
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Version: PGP 8.0.3
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